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this skeptical where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I'm your host Alex Karras

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and during the many years I've done the

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show I've never had someone ask to come

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on and straighten me out about something

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I got wrong on previous interview with

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them or in this case with their

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co-author but that's exactly what we're

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going to do today dr. John Martin

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Fischer a distinguished professor of

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philosophy at University of California

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Riverside which is right up the road

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from me is here to talk about a couple

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of books that he's written one that we

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featured in the previous episode of

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skeptical near-death experiences

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understanding visions of the afterlife

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and another one it which is more recent

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death immortality and meaning of life

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john welcome to skeptic oh thanks so

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much for joining me thank you

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Alex I appreciate the invitation and let

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me just clarify that one reason I wanted

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to come on the show was that when you

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had tried to reach me before I was

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actually ill and away from my office for

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some months and that's why I did not get

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your messages but it was entirely my

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fault and it seemed too very rude I'm

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sure but I I apologized and I'm happy to

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have the opportunity now well I'm more

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than happy to give you that opportunity

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and yeah I did reach out to you

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initially but I wonder I thought one way

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we could bring people up to speed is I

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did have a very good interview I thought

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with your co-author someone who was a

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research fellow working underneath

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underneath you dr. Ben Mitchell Yellin

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and I thought one way to kind of kick

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this thing off is to play a clip from

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that previous interview that we did and

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I'll go ahead and play that clip for the

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audience right now okay

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we can start there I have to say when I

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play that clip it's actually more

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generous to you guys even than I would

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be if I was kind of doing it again but

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tell us tell us why you felt like you

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needed to come back on and kind of set

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the record straight okay well first

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again I appreciate that opportunity

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there were a couple of things that I

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picked up from that quotation that

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little extra one was the point that all

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of the other near-death researchers

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perhaps serious academic researchers

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have not come to the same conclusion

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that we did you are wondering why and

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secondly the introduction to the chapter

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in which we were talking about

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near-death experiences in the blind

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first of all as you know when we're

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doing thoughtful analysis and reflection

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we don't just count the number of people

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who are on one side or another you know

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you can find a lot of people on every

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side of any interesting controversial

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issue secondly there are quite a number

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of researchers serious academic

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researchers some of which we supported

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in the immortality project who take a

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different perspective not necessarily as

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supernaturalists so for instance one of

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our researchers whom we supported with

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sampar Nia whom you mentioned and I'm a

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very good friend of Stan's were in

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constant correspondence in contact I

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respect his work very much we also

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supported Shahar RC in Israel who does

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not take a super naturalist approach but

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he's a very thoughtful scientist we also

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supported Mel Slater and his wife Maria

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Sanchez Viva who are part of an ongoing

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research project in Spain using a

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merciless virtual reality

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and they've done some interesting

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simulations of near-death experiences

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using immersive virtual reality and

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they've studied it none of those as far

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as I know has come to a supernatural

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conclusion there's of course the work of

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Oliver Sacks there's a work of Kevin

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Nelson an MD and a neural scientists at

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University of Kentucky who offers

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interesting physical explanations in

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terms of the brain so there are a lot of

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people who don't really on when you

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break down even your list there you can

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start with Nelson we've covered his

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research extensively on that's right

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because a dr. Jeffrey Long who we're

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going to talk about in and in it yeah

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actually gave his data to Nelson to do

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the work and Jeffrey lung kind of does a

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complete breakdown of how REM intrusion

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which is Nelson's conclusion is

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completely kind of ridiculous

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pelant's and party who you mentioned

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comes to a conclusion that I'd like to

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say the supernatural kind of explanation

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which we can get into a minute I don't I

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don't know that these people are saying

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supernatural but I hear them saying is

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that by our normal understanding of

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neurology the current neurological model

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consciousness seems to be surviving

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death in a way that we don't understand

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and they say that repeatedly and as far

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as people stacking up on different sides

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of a debate that's not what's going on

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here what's going on here are

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researchers who are open-mindedly

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analyzing trying to understand doing

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research into a phenomenon and then

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coming to a conclusion at the end that

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is supported by their data so this isn't

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a you know Republican Democrat Pro

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against it's just researchers doing

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research and all the researchers come to

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one conclusion and then you write a it

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suggests not true at all Susan Blackmore

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did not come to that conclusion Kevin

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Nelson doesn't come to that conclusion

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what you said was too

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long has analyzed Kevin Nelson and

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allegedly refuted and that's not to say

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that Kevin Nelson came to a supernatural

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conclusion secondly um how many research

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it's interesting it's a very small

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number of scientists who do study and

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E's and that's partly because until

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recently it's been totally dismissed by

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the scientific community part of my work

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as you know is to try and say people who

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have reported end E's are serious honest

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sincere people by and large

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not everyone we know the stories of Alex

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malarkey and others but almost all of

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them are serious sincere people I

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believe them and we need to study them

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and study them carefully so I believe

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more study should be done but as it is

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now you can pretty much count the

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serious academic studies on one or two

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hands simply not true

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you know I mean it's I had on Janice

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Holden who along with Bruce Grayson

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published the write the handbook now let

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me let me which reference is 200 and a

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growing number of peer-reviewed

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near-death experience research papers

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one of the things I thought we would do

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today is kind of talk about this

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research because your your book is

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incredibly researched light it doesn't

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reference the research in today when you

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talk about Oliver Sacks he never did any

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research in the near-death experiences

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in his book hallucinations he discusses

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what do you mean I don't know so in

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other words I couldn't do research on

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the on slavery in the US unless I talked

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to slaves is that it I can't do any

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research on on any phenomena in history

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unless I've actually talked to them I

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have of course talked to people who've

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had near-death experiences and I've read

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the thousands as you know they're a dime

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a dozen

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there are thousands online that you can

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read and they've all gone to heaven and

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talked to Jesus and they've come back

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old are they for they

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riddlin butterfly wings or they've blah

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blah blah fill in the blank I've read

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hundreds probably thousands of those

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reports now I don't again I don't think

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we want to go into accounting Matt I

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will say that Janice Walden who's the

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editor of the Journal of near-death

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studies sponsored by ions with him

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they're very familiar the International

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Association of near-death studies I also

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consider her a friend

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we've course bonded regularly and she

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was kind enough and gracious enough to

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do a book symposium on our book and then

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wrote a reply essay and she was very

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professional she's indicated informally

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that she plans to do something on my new

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book as well so also the reason I first

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got interested in near-death experiences

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was I was on a panel with Bruce Grayson

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a panel in which we discussed ongoing

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research on immortality with the

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Templeton Foundation on the basis of

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that panel discussion I've kept in touch

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with Bruce I I respect his work greatly

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so I don't just dismiss these people I

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know then they refer to a lot of stuff

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200 even if there were 200 papers on

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near-death experiences I would say

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that's a tiny it's like a grain of sand

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at the beautiful beach there at Delmar

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where you live

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compared to the number of scientific

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studies we'd expect on any serious

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phenomenal yeah okay we play a couple of

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clips okay kind of okay I before I'm

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sorry to interrupt but you played

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something about our discussion of the

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blind we introduced that chapter simply

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by saying we have to be skeptical about

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what people say you're a skeptic and

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that's important I'm not a skeptic well

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you are a skeptic about science and your

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ladies clip your book is but if I may

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talk extensively I'll get blind okay

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trust me

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so dr. long let me probe a little bit

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further about the types of near-death

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experience research that's out there

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because for the years I've had a lot of

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near-death experience researchers and

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for example you know just the other day

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I interviewed this guy nice enough guy

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University of California he's doing his

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post doctoral fellowship he's part of a

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team they received four million dollars

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and Foundation to study near-death

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experiences so I speak to him about his

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research turns out he didn't really do

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any original research he didn't go into

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a hospital into a cardiac arrest ward

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and talk to patients there he didn't as

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you did develop a 150 medical survey and

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give it to hundreds of near-death

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experience researchers yet he published

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his results we talked about his book he

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concluded that near-death experiences

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aren't real in the way that we're

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talking about

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they don't suggest that consciousness

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seems to survive bodily death so I guess

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the question is for the average person

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who's trying to sort through this idea

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of near-death experience science

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research how do they sort through it how

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do they know what research really holds

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up out there the key thing is to know a

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few of the consistently seen elements of

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near-death experience that are the

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strongest evidence for their reality for

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example when you're under general

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anesthesia it should be impossible to

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have a lucid organized remembrance at

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that time in fact under anesthesia

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you're typically so far under with

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general anesthesia they often have to

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breathe for you I mean you're literally

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brain shut down to the level of the

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brainstem and at that point in time some

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00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:45,430
people have a cardiac arrest their heart

277
00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:46,990
stops and of course that's very well

278
00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:47,830
documented

279
00:12:52,650 --> 00:12:50,020
they monitor people very carefully that

280
00:12:54,330 --> 00:12:52,660
are having general anesthesia so I have

281
00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:54,340
dozens and dozens of near-death

282
00:12:59,070 --> 00:12:56,590
experiences that occurred under general

283
00:13:01,920 --> 00:12:59,080
anesthesia and at this time it should be

284
00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:01,930
if you will doubly impossible to have a

285
00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:04,180
conscious remembrance and yet they do

286
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:06,340
have near-death experiences at this time

287
00:13:10,270 --> 00:13:08,450
and their typical near-death

288
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:10,280
experiences they have the same elements

289
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:12,050
and appear to have them in the same

290
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:13,730
order as near-death experiences

291
00:13:18,370 --> 00:13:16,010
occurring under all other circumstances

292
00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:18,380
and in fact a critical survey question I

293
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:20,270
asked was what their level of

294
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:21,890
consciousness and alertness during the

295
00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:24,410
experience was well even under general

296
00:13:29,020 --> 00:13:26,390
anesthetics under those powerful

297
00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:29,030
chemicals to produce sedation if they

298
00:13:32,590 --> 00:13:30,500
had a near-death experience under

299
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:32,600
general anesthesia their level of

300
00:13:36,370 --> 00:13:34,160
consciousness and alertness was

301
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:36,380
identical to near-death experience is

302
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:38,330
occurring under all other circumstances

303
00:13:43,330 --> 00:13:40,850
there's absolutely no way the skeptics

304
00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:43,340
can explain that away it's impossible

305
00:13:47,170 --> 00:13:45,440
that unit of itself is some of the

306
00:13:49,180 --> 00:13:47,180
strongest single line of evidence that

307
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:49,190
your death experiences have to be

308
00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:51,530
independent of brain functioning there's

309
00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:53,030
simply no way you can be under general

310
00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:55,340
anesthesia and have a highly lucid

311
00:14:00,070 --> 00:13:58,130
organized experience like that and

312
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:00,080
especially one that's consistently seen

313
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:02,090
throughout near-death experience

314
00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:04,610
research so that's probably the

315
00:14:08,830 --> 00:14:06,710
strongest line of evidence we have that

316
00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:08,840
the physical brain as we know it simply

317
00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:10,870
cannot produce the near-death experience

318
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:12,020
okay

319
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:15,290
there's a radiation oncologist full-time

320
00:14:20,890 --> 00:14:17,630
medical doctor talking about medicine I

321
00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:20,900
mean what's the response the response is

322
00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:23,870
that we don't know exactly when the

323
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:26,960
near-death experience the phenomenology

324
00:14:33,730 --> 00:14:30,860
or the experiential content occurs two

325
00:14:36,850 --> 00:14:33,740
problems one I think I probably

326
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:36,860
emphasize less our mechanisms for

327
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:39,230
detecting brain activity are still

328
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,090
fairly crude they're not very

329
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:43,760
sophisticated neuroscience is in its

330
00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:46,370
infancy or maybe it's toddler stage but

331
00:14:52,210 --> 00:14:48,860
we don't really have the tools to be

332
00:14:55,710 --> 00:14:52,220
sure when the brain function is suitable

333
00:14:59,740 --> 00:14:55,720
and when it's not more importantly

334
00:15:03,010 --> 00:14:59,750
consider a dream people report dreams

335
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:03,020
with content that spans a long period of

336
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:06,050
time but when did they actually have the

337
00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:08,210
brain activity that underwrites the

338
00:15:12,730 --> 00:15:09,980
dream typically when they're ramping up

339
00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:12,740
when the brain is ramping up after being

340
00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:15,950
asleep after being not wake fully

341
00:15:21,190 --> 00:15:18,020
conscious the brain ramps up and the

342
00:15:22,450 --> 00:15:21,200
individual wakes up and we can do the

343
00:15:26,579 --> 00:15:22,460
studies that show

344
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:26,589
that the brain activity is plausibly

345
00:15:31,170 --> 00:15:29,330
underwriting the dream in the last 20

346
00:15:33,310 --> 00:15:31,180
seconds before the individual wakes up

347
00:15:38,410 --> 00:15:33,320
but let me just say this

348
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:38,420
I respect dr. long as you know my book

349
00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:40,760
with Ben and I've done the two books but

350
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:43,580
my book with Ben Mitchell Yellen very

351
00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:46,910
carefully and thoroughly analyzes the

352
00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:50,779
book that Geoffrey long road evidence of

353
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:52,310
the afterlife so if people are

354
00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:54,500
interested in a careful reflective

355
00:16:00,519 --> 00:15:57,500
analysis of dr. Long's results that's a

356
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:00,529
good place to look he is an oncologist

357
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:03,050
but he's not an oncologist he is not a

358
00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:05,839
philosopher and these are not purely

359
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:07,910
medical questions these are questions

360
00:16:15,070 --> 00:16:11,330
about what we can infer from medical

361
00:16:17,769 --> 00:16:15,080
questions what do they mean and as such

362
00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:17,779
a doctor although as you know most

363
00:16:24,070 --> 00:16:20,020
doctors think of themselves as gods a

364
00:16:26,769 --> 00:16:24,080
doctor is not the best person to consult

365
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:26,779
about the philosophical meaning of what

366
00:16:32,860 --> 00:16:29,750
the patient's say so that's the bet the

367
00:16:35,949 --> 00:16:32,870
bet that the bottom line is dr. long and

368
00:16:38,470 --> 00:16:35,959
no one knows exactly when the individual

369
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:38,480
was having this experience it might seem

370
00:16:43,630 --> 00:16:41,810
like it was over a long period yeah John

371
00:16:45,790 --> 00:16:43,640
John you just you just and I went over

372
00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:45,800
this with Ben I I sent you that I said

373
00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:47,300
please go back and listen to the

374
00:16:52,570 --> 00:16:49,430
interview with Ben because you you guys

375
00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:52,580
just aren't up to speed on the research

376
00:16:56,140 --> 00:16:54,200
or I'll play another clip here's the

377
00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:56,150
best research that directly addresses

378
00:17:00,040 --> 00:16:58,010
that this is from chapter 3 your book

379
00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:00,050
when exactly did near-death experiences

380
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:03,140
take place here's dr. penny Sartori had

381
00:17:07,870 --> 00:17:05,329
to run the show important research I'll

382
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:07,880
play you the clip and my view it's not

383
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:12,079
important research you know there's so

384
00:17:15,730 --> 00:17:14,030
many ways to break down this topic of

385
00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:15,740
near-death experience and as we were

386
00:17:18,669 --> 00:17:17,030
just talking about in this book that

387
00:17:22,809 --> 00:17:18,679
you've written it's it's very

388
00:17:25,120 --> 00:17:22,819
inspirational and that's terrific I mean

389
00:17:27,299 --> 00:17:25,130
there's a lot - there's a lot to be

390
00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:27,309
inspired about and there's a lot of

391
00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:29,720
cultural change that needs to go around

392
00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:32,030
this but the scientific angle and that's

393
00:17:35,049 --> 00:17:33,320
what I always thought was terrific about

394
00:17:36,399 --> 00:17:35,059
this research is

395
00:17:39,580 --> 00:17:36,409
as you know there's been this ongoing

396
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:39,590
debate well you it's it's not scientific

397
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:41,210
they're just these anecdotal accounts

398
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:43,990
and besides you could never study this

399
00:17:47,830 --> 00:17:45,679
scientifically and I always like to

400
00:17:52,499 --> 00:17:47,840
point people to your research and I say

401
00:17:56,289 --> 00:17:52,509
no here's really a wonderfully simple

402
00:18:01,180 --> 00:17:56,299
experiment that was done that one

403
00:18:03,129 --> 00:18:01,190
both adds incredible scientific evidence

404
00:18:05,769 --> 00:18:03,139
suggesting the reality of near-death

405
00:18:07,749 --> 00:18:05,779
experiences but also shows us a path how

406
00:18:10,739 --> 00:18:07,759
you can you can apply science to this

407
00:18:14,999 --> 00:18:10,749
can you just go over in in broad strokes

408
00:18:18,009 --> 00:18:15,009
the study that you did about people's

409
00:18:20,289 --> 00:18:18,019
recollection of their resuscitation and

410
00:18:22,389 --> 00:18:20,299
how one control how the control group

411
00:18:25,539 --> 00:18:22,399
was set up and how that was basically

412
00:18:28,419 --> 00:18:25,549
done okay so what I did was over the

413
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:28,429
period of five years I interviewed for

414
00:18:32,980 --> 00:18:30,559
the first year I interviewed every

415
00:18:35,249 --> 00:18:32,990
single patient who survived their

416
00:18:37,749 --> 00:18:35,259
admission to the intensive care unit and

417
00:18:40,029 --> 00:18:37,759
I wanted to make sure that I didn't miss

418
00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:40,039
any patients and what I found at the end

419
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:42,049
of the first year was that I was

420
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:44,090
actually spending longer in the hospital

421
00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:45,919
than I was at home so I couldn't sustain

422
00:18:51,489 --> 00:18:48,429
that for the following five four years

423
00:18:54,249 --> 00:18:51,499
though what I thought what I did then is

424
00:18:56,499 --> 00:18:54,259
I narrowed down the kind of the group I

425
00:18:59,019 --> 00:18:56,509
was interviewing so I only approached

426
00:19:00,340 --> 00:18:59,029
patients who had undergone cardiac

427
00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:00,350
arrest and survived

428
00:19:06,249 --> 00:19:03,350
and although the sample was a little

429
00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:06,259
smaller than the first year what I found

430
00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:09,350
is that in 30 out of 39 patients who had

431
00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:12,559
been successfully resuscitated seven of

432
00:19:17,710 --> 00:19:14,600
them recalled a near-death experience

433
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:17,720
and that's you know as nearly 18 percent

434
00:19:22,779 --> 00:19:20,210
of patients who survived cardiac arrest

435
00:19:25,149 --> 00:19:22,789
had this kind of experience and what I

436
00:19:27,249 --> 00:19:25,159
also did is I documented their blood

437
00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:27,259
results at the time I looked at the

438
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:29,179
drugs that were given and I also

439
00:19:33,820 --> 00:19:32,090
interviewed that the staff members who

440
00:19:36,340 --> 00:19:33,830
were looking after the patient so the

441
00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:36,350
nurses and the doctors I asked them if

442
00:19:41,619 --> 00:19:39,230
one of the page if the patients reported

443
00:19:43,509 --> 00:19:41,629
the out-of-body component I would then

444
00:19:47,009 --> 00:19:43,519
try and verify what it was that they

445
00:19:48,730 --> 00:19:47,019
wrote what they described I would I

446
00:19:50,019 --> 00:19:48,740
verified that with an

447
00:19:52,210 --> 00:19:50,029
the nurses and the doctors who were

448
00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:52,220
looking after them with the control

449
00:19:57,039 --> 00:19:54,320
group I had then patients who'd been

450
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:57,049
successfully resuscitated but they

451
00:20:01,330 --> 00:19:59,600
didn't have a near-death experience so

452
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:01,340
they didn't have the antibody component

453
00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:03,710
and I asked them if they could describe

454
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:05,929
what they thought that we had done to

455
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:09,049
them and they were like what do you mean

456
00:20:15,250 --> 00:20:11,450
I don't I was dead I don't remember

457
00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:15,260
anything right why are you asking me

458
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:18,020
this I have no idea what you did to me

459
00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:21,260
at all like and the majority of them

460
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:23,750
couldn't even guess they couldn't make a

461
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:25,490
guess as to what we'd done

462
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:28,130
and then a few of them then did make a

463
00:20:33,310 --> 00:20:30,770
guess and it was based on T V Hospital

464
00:20:34,779 --> 00:20:33,320
dramas that they've been watching and

465
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:34,789
what I found is that there were errors

466
00:20:39,610 --> 00:20:37,010
and misconceptions in what they thought

467
00:20:42,159 --> 00:20:39,620
we had done to them and so some of them

468
00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:42,169
thought that they had been DC shocked

469
00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:44,630
with the paddles and they hadn't those

470
00:20:50,409 --> 00:20:46,100
people had just had the resuscitation

471
00:20:53,470 --> 00:20:50,419
the CPR and drugs administered such as

472
00:20:56,260 --> 00:20:53,480
adrenaline or noradrenaline and then

473
00:20:58,389 --> 00:20:56,270
some of them made educated guesses but

474
00:21:01,240 --> 00:20:58,399
the police where they thought that we

475
00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:01,250
put the paddles on to their body was

476
00:21:05,649 --> 00:21:03,740
completely erroneous it was wrong it was

477
00:21:08,409 --> 00:21:05,659
incorrect it just goes to show that the

478
00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:08,419
people who did report the near-death

479
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:11,029
experience described their experience

480
00:21:15,789 --> 00:21:13,220
with accuracy or as the control group

481
00:21:18,190 --> 00:21:15,799
weren't Winsett accurate and they most

482
00:21:20,230 --> 00:21:18,200
of them couldn't even hazard a guess so

483
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:20,240
John to me this is near-death experience

484
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:22,490
research what dr. long is doing is

485
00:21:26,139 --> 00:21:24,169
near-death experience research

486
00:21:27,970 --> 00:21:26,149
you mentioned the timing thing doesn't

487
00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:27,980
this address the timing thing with real

488
00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:30,289
research somebody in a hospital someone

489
00:21:34,389 --> 00:21:31,580
working with people who've had a

490
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:34,399
near-death experience well Alex first I

491
00:21:38,950 --> 00:21:36,799
apologize but I really couldn't here

492
00:21:42,399 --> 00:21:38,960
couldn't understand what she was saying

493
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:42,409
in terms of the quality of the audio can

494
00:21:46,330 --> 00:21:44,330
you just in a couple sense it's as

495
00:21:50,230 --> 00:21:46,340
summarized what she was saying good

496
00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:50,240
thank you for the summary I admire dr.

497
00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:52,760
Sartori I Penny Sartori

498
00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:55,460
I've read her recent book one thing I

499
00:22:00,010 --> 00:21:57,320
want to commend about her as she points

500
00:22:02,049 --> 00:22:00,020
out that one of the important features

501
00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:02,059
of near-death experiences is that they

502
00:22:04,419 --> 00:22:02,600
show

503
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:04,429
something important about end-of-life

504
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:07,490
care about a more humane way of treating

505
00:22:14,169 --> 00:22:10,210
people at the end-of-life her own

506
00:22:15,610 --> 00:22:14,179
perhaps a basis on which she makes that

507
00:22:17,620 --> 00:22:15,620
argument might be a little different

508
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:17,630
from mine but I do find it a very

509
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:20,090
insightful point a point that I myself

510
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:23,360
want to develop further I know she's

511
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:27,230
very sincere I don't know that it's a

512
00:22:34,990 --> 00:22:32,090
double-blind a project that was overseen

513
00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:35,000
by anyone else I know that she has very

514
00:22:41,620 --> 00:22:38,270
strong antecedent views about these

515
00:22:43,659 --> 00:22:41,630
matters and I think confirmation bias

516
00:22:46,149 --> 00:22:43,669
plays an important role when you have

517
00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:46,159
antecedent news well you would have to

518
00:22:50,140 --> 00:22:48,289
establish that you would have to one how

519
00:22:53,799 --> 00:22:50,150
can you not even know of this research I

520
00:22:57,370 --> 00:22:53,809
know this I've studied this look there

521
00:22:59,770 --> 00:22:57,380
is is it there is did it have oversight

522
00:23:02,590 --> 00:22:59,780
or did it not have over so not that I've

523
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:02,600
seen and let me say this it would be

524
00:23:07,690 --> 00:23:05,210
impossible of course to have read every

525
00:23:10,779 --> 00:23:07,700
study that's referred to as you say

526
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:10,789
there there are a lot of things out

527
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:13,010
there in the internet and popular books

528
00:23:19,450 --> 00:23:16,340
I've read I've read quite a number of

529
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:19,460
books by I believe her research did have

530
00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:22,130
oversight by dr. Peter fennec it was a

531
00:23:26,529 --> 00:23:24,679
colleague of hers and as you know dr. C

532
00:23:28,539 --> 00:23:26,539
and parney was also a colleague of hers

533
00:23:31,299 --> 00:23:28,549
there were a lasagna

534
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:31,309
dr. Ponyo has an ongoing study called

535
00:23:36,430 --> 00:23:33,710
aware of which I'm sure you are aware

536
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:36,440
and we supported it the immortality

537
00:23:44,169 --> 00:23:40,010
project gave him $250,000 he is a good

538
00:23:45,970 --> 00:23:44,179
friend as of now in my view and I think

539
00:23:50,590 --> 00:23:45,980
you would share this he does not have a

540
00:23:52,570 --> 00:23:50,600
single case where someone saw one of the

541
00:23:57,010 --> 00:23:52,580
monitors that he places in hospital

542
00:23:58,930 --> 00:23:57,020
rooms and identified the number and he

543
00:24:01,659 --> 00:23:58,940
has pointed out that he had to make his

544
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:01,669
study very very carefully double blinded

545
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:03,380
because when he was first doing the

546
00:24:10,299 --> 00:24:06,320
study in Southampton the nurses actually

547
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:10,309
prompted the patient's terror management

548
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:13,490
and confirmation bias is so powerful

549
00:24:19,540 --> 00:24:16,490
that the nurses wanted the patients

550
00:24:21,310 --> 00:24:19,550
to tell dr. partyi the right answer so

551
00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:21,320
they gave you don't you don't you're

552
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:25,750
just kind of not take the conclusions of

553
00:24:30,250 --> 00:24:28,610
I've had him on the show that's okay I'm

554
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:30,260
glad you've talked to him I've talked to

555
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:31,850
him too I'd have my I've had him on the

556
00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:33,890
show multiple times and the first time

557
00:24:38,260 --> 00:24:35,750
he was kind of very much in this

558
00:24:40,450 --> 00:24:38,270
in-between zone of whether or not he

559
00:24:42,550 --> 00:24:40,460
thought that his dead it was suggestive

560
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:42,560
of consciousness surviving death since

561
00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:44,690
then maybe you know he has come out and

562
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:47,150
his conclusion is that based on all the

563
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:49,130
research that he's done he is of the

564
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:51,290
opinion that his research is highly

565
00:24:56,020 --> 00:24:53,210
suggestive that consciousness survives

566
00:24:57,550 --> 00:24:56,030
death so don't spin Barnea as saying

567
00:24:59,770 --> 00:24:57,560
something different and as far as I'm

568
00:25:03,010 --> 00:24:59,780
just reporting but he does not have a

569
00:25:06,850 --> 00:25:03,020
single case it's very detailed method a

570
00:25:10,660 --> 00:25:06,860
lot about to me where can I look at one

571
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:10,670
single example or Sam whom I respect is

572
00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:13,910
a great scientist has found someone who

573
00:25:18,910 --> 00:25:16,550
cannot see a computer monitor in their

574
00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:18,920
room and they are unconscious and they

575
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:21,020
identify the number that's randomly put

576
00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:23,690
tell me where I can find it he's been

577
00:25:27,910 --> 00:25:25,940
working on this if you think he's such a

578
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:27,920
great researcher in your respect him

579
00:25:33,010 --> 00:25:30,170
that wanted to respect his conclusion I

580
00:25:35,590 --> 00:25:33,020
don't want a year of a multi-year study

581
00:25:38,470 --> 00:25:35,600
in which he concludes what I just said

582
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:38,480
so the methodological issues in terms of

583
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:41,090
seeing a particular thing placed in a

584
00:25:46,090 --> 00:25:43,130
particular area when someone's outside

585
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:46,100
of their body has all sorts of details

586
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:47,840
to it that we've explored on this show

587
00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:50,090
but it's not up to you to decide that

588
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:52,550
that is the sole criteria again that

589
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:55,250
researchers conclusion is based on all

590
00:25:59,680 --> 00:25:56,810
his research because he does research

591
00:26:01,870 --> 00:25:59,690
similar to what dr. Sartori is doing in

592
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:01,880
terms of asking people to recover very

593
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:04,250
very important this conclusion at the

594
00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:08,150
end of the day is that well he is a

595
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:12,080
thoughtful scientist but as you know you

596
00:26:16,290 --> 00:26:14,030
emphasize in your work that science

597
00:26:17,770 --> 00:26:16,300
doesn't even address the most important

598
00:26:20,650 --> 00:26:17,780
things in life

599
00:26:22,420 --> 00:26:20,660
matter of fact you have a book that's

600
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:22,430
called science is wrong about everything

601
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:25,690
and or something like that and

602
00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:28,930
I think the point is that scientists and

603
00:26:36,150 --> 00:26:32,230
doctors only go so far then we're all

604
00:26:39,210 --> 00:26:36,160
all human beings have the right to

605
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:39,220
analyze and reflect on those studies

606
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:41,650
that they do and on their conclusions

607
00:26:48,990 --> 00:26:45,190
now if Sam were my respect says some of

608
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:49,000
his data suggests or even strongly

609
00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:51,700
suggests that consciousness survives for

610
00:26:56,910 --> 00:26:54,760
failure to function of the brain the

611
00:26:58,500 --> 00:26:56,920
death of the brain I respect that

612
00:27:00,450 --> 00:26:58,510
what he's saying is that's the

613
00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:00,460
suggestion there's no proof there

614
00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:03,220
there's no and so we can agree to

615
00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:07,150
disagree I'm sure that that I disagree

616
00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:11,020
that the data strongly suggest that let

617
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:13,660
me say one of the people that said and

618
00:27:18,990 --> 00:27:15,760
various of the other supernaturalists

619
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:19,000
invoke apparently wanting the authority

620
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:20,950
of the contemporary philosopher of mind

621
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:24,640
is David Chalmers David Chalmers is

622
00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:27,400
invoked by pin dhamaal and a whole host

623
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:30,550
of others and yet David Chalmers does

624
00:27:35,910 --> 00:27:32,650
not believe that consciousness survives

625
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:35,920
death he's a duelist but not a substance

626
00:27:40,770 --> 00:27:38,530
duelist he's a property dualist he does

627
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:40,780
not believe that consciousness survives

628
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:43,450
this so there are a lot of philosophical

629
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:46,570
conclusions that are made by MDS and

630
00:27:53,970 --> 00:27:49,810
those philosophical conclusions people

631
00:27:56,610 --> 00:27:53,980
can reasonably disagree with I don't

632
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,620
think so but hey that's why we have this

633
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:58,960
show here's another clip from Doc you

634
00:28:02,850 --> 00:28:00,640
know what you don't think that we can

635
00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:02,860
disagree with scientists conclusions

636
00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:06,100
about metaphysical matters I thought you

637
00:28:10,470 --> 00:28:08,740
thought that science doesn't even deal

638
00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:10,480
with the most important questions and

639
00:28:16,530 --> 00:28:12,070
that that they're wrong about everything

640
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:16,540
just about oh yeah we can get into that

641
00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:18,250
balaam I need to talk about my own book

642
00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:20,470
I will just mention you are you're

643
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:24,550
making claims about my research to talk

644
00:28:28,290 --> 00:28:26,170
about it I just didn't want to waste our

645
00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:28,300
time my point so you think we should

646
00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:31,960
agree with every I mean the scientists

647
00:28:37,980 --> 00:28:35,620
disagree obviously so the premise of why

648
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:37,990
science is wrong about almost everything

649
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:39,760
and it does get to the heart of the

650
00:28:44,970 --> 00:28:42,130
problem I have with your work is that if

651
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:44,980
science doesn't understand consciousness

652
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:47,410
if science can't get consciousness right

653
00:28:52,380 --> 00:28:50,080
then science can't get anything right

654
00:28:54,660 --> 00:28:52,390
because we will always come back to the

655
00:28:56,850 --> 00:28:54,670
how many angels fit on the head of oh if

656
00:29:02,130 --> 00:28:56,860
you have a cancer who you're gonna turn

657
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:02,140
to no way doesn't science have something

658
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:04,090
to say about illness and how to treat it

659
00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:07,150
and I isn't that the best bet I think

660
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:10,540
that that we're mixing the philosophical

661
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:12,730
and the private so much your family had

662
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:16,210
a serious disease would you go to a

663
00:29:21,810 --> 00:29:19,390
faith healer or someone who will read

664
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:21,820
your palm or will you but I thought you

665
00:29:28,050 --> 00:29:24,370
said science gets everything wrong if

666
00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:28,060
they can't get consciousness right I

667
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:30,430
think I said almost but I think we're

668
00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:32,770
getting off track I'd go back that's the

669
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:34,240
title of the book why science is wrong

670
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:36,010
about almost everything so you can

671
00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:37,930
snicker but that's what it said back to

672
00:29:41,420 --> 00:29:39,910
Jeff long so see if you can turn up the

673
00:29:43,710 --> 00:29:41,430
volume so you can hear this one it's

674
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:43,720
because it directly addresses your

675
00:29:49,290 --> 00:29:47,560
research okay and I'm gonna push that a

676
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:49,300
little bit further because here's what I

677
00:29:52,890 --> 00:29:51,130
was trying to lead you really because

678
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:52,900
this has come up over and over again

679
00:29:57,270 --> 00:29:55,210
with me Jeff I'm not making this up

680
00:29:59,520 --> 00:29:57,280
you know it because you see it out there

681
00:30:02,370 --> 00:29:59,530
I mean here's a book with all these

682
00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:02,380
academic credentials and you dig into it

683
00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:05,620
and they never spoke with someone who

684
00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:07,180
actually had a near-death experience i

685
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:08,830
I've had this happen

686
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:10,960
over and over again I can think of three

687
00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:12,880
or four in the last year right if you

688
00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:14,350
interviewed him and I just want to I

689
00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:16,360
just want to scream it go how is this

690
00:30:20,130 --> 00:30:18,070
near-death experience research there's

691
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:20,140
no people who had a near-death

692
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:23,710
experience that you know that is an

693
00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:26,080
amazingly good point it is astounding to

694
00:30:31,530 --> 00:30:28,270
me to that we have people that publish

695
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:31,540
write books write scholarly papers about

696
00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:33,130
near-death experience that have

697
00:30:37,770 --> 00:30:34,960
literally never talked to someone who

698
00:30:40,170 --> 00:30:37,780
had a near-death experience that is some

699
00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:40,180
of the most bizarre research I can

700
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:43,180
possibly imagine it makes no sense to me

701
00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:45,610
and I'm sure everybody that sees this

702
00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:48,190
video is going to think gosh how is that

703
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:50,200
even possible how can somebody claim

704
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:50,940
that they're doing

705
00:30:54,650 --> 00:30:53,370
experience research and never ever even

706
00:30:57,170 --> 00:30:54,660
talked to someone who had a near-death

707
00:30:58,700 --> 00:30:57,180
experience well the answer is you can't

708
00:31:00,800 --> 00:30:58,710
if you're going to investigate

709
00:31:02,750 --> 00:31:00,810
near-death experiences you have to talk

710
00:31:04,550 --> 00:31:02,760
to the near-death experiencers and you

711
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:04,560
have to understand what happened during

712
00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:07,470
the near-death experience okay I did

713
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:09,960
hear that thank you I better turn my

714
00:31:15,650 --> 00:31:12,450
volume down though now because you'll

715
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:15,660
come come in very lovely I respect

716
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:18,720
doctor and long as I mentioned much of

717
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:20,550
the book that Ben and I wrote looks

718
00:31:26,260 --> 00:31:23,210
carefully at the logic behind his

719
00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:26,270
conclusions like I say these are not

720
00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:29,640
medical matters purely these are about

721
00:31:36,590 --> 00:31:32,940
the metaphysical conclusions that you

722
00:31:40,010 --> 00:31:36,600
reach and what we argued respectively

723
00:31:43,340 --> 00:31:40,020
respectfully was that his logic is bad

724
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:43,350
and I would absolutely love to come on

725
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:45,440
this program or any other program and

726
00:31:52,070 --> 00:31:49,500
have a friendly serious discussion with

727
00:31:54,950 --> 00:31:52,080
dr. Locke I mean if you could facilitate

728
00:31:58,100 --> 00:31:54,960
a debate that'd be great or in any

729
00:32:00,530 --> 00:31:58,110
context I would like to discuss but the

730
00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:00,540
point is he's coming to philosophical

731
00:32:06,950 --> 00:32:03,870
conclusions and he is not as an

732
00:32:09,860 --> 00:32:06,960
oncologist uniquely suited to do that

733
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:09,870
secondly now I would not know how to

734
00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:12,840
treat someone with prostate cancer I I

735
00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:15,900
assume he does and I respect him but

736
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:17,520
when he comes to philosophical

737
00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:19,650
conclusions he doesn't have any special

738
00:32:25,490 --> 00:32:23,100
Authority all of us as human beings can

739
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:25,500
think and can use logic and shouldn't we

740
00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:28,410
use critical thinking and logic secondly

741
00:32:36,710 --> 00:32:33,300
I one thing that I have always done and

742
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:36,720
been has always done and I thought Ben

743
00:32:42,980 --> 00:32:38,910
did a very good job in his interview

744
00:32:45,950 --> 00:32:42,990
with you we respect these reports unlike

745
00:32:48,650 --> 00:32:45,960
some people we we argued they really are

746
00:32:50,990 --> 00:32:48,660
being honest and these events really

747
00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:51,000
occurred they experienced that the only

748
00:32:58,790 --> 00:32:54,150
question is what their meaning is so we

749
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:58,800
stipulate every all these reports I mean

750
00:33:04,630 --> 00:33:00,960
what would we learn if we I mean if I

751
00:33:08,009 --> 00:33:04,640
did a thousand interviews with people

752
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:08,019
I'm stipulating I'm saying okay

753
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:10,399
everything they say is true they had

754
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:12,380
these experiences it seemed as though

755
00:33:16,389 --> 00:33:14,809
they were riding on the wing of a black

756
00:33:20,019 --> 00:33:16,399
butterfly it seemed as though they

757
00:33:22,990 --> 00:33:20,029
talked to Jesus Colton Burpo thought

758
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:23,000
that he sat at the table with Jesus and

759
00:33:28,690 --> 00:33:26,630
so forth stipulate all that's true now

760
00:33:30,639 --> 00:33:28,700
what are the philosophical conclusions

761
00:33:31,419 --> 00:33:30,649
that you're going to draw that's a

762
00:33:34,289 --> 00:33:31,429
different point

763
00:33:36,789 --> 00:33:34,299
as you know Alex you could talk to

764
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:36,799
thousands of people who've gone to faith

765
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:40,820
healers and they absolutely they're sure

766
00:33:45,149 --> 00:33:43,760
that the faith healer cured them they're

767
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:45,159
sure of it

768
00:33:50,289 --> 00:33:47,570
what would it help I mean I could go

769
00:33:52,779 --> 00:33:50,299
talk and let me also just reiterate a

770
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:52,789
point I suppose you don't think you

771
00:33:58,620 --> 00:33:55,610
could study slavery or its impact on

772
00:34:01,480 --> 00:33:58,630
people without actually talking to slave

773
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:01,490
or you can't talk about the economy of

774
00:34:06,610 --> 00:34:04,159
China without going and talking to

775
00:34:09,550 --> 00:34:06,620
Chinese people you can study phenomena

776
00:34:12,550 --> 00:34:09,560
and study them very carefully and then

777
00:34:14,889 --> 00:34:12,560
pinpoint the issues that are important

778
00:34:19,180 --> 00:34:14,899
to you without going out in the field

779
00:34:22,180 --> 00:34:19,190
and and doing field research I could

780
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:22,190
John it's just this is what you and Ben

781
00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:24,290
it's kind of a silly discussion at some

782
00:34:27,849 --> 00:34:25,730
point and we're just kind of rehashing

783
00:34:30,730 --> 00:34:27,859
the same thing over and over again if

784
00:34:32,649 --> 00:34:30,740
you go back to dr. Long's first comment

785
00:34:33,970 --> 00:34:32,659
that I played and I think people will

786
00:34:36,609 --> 00:34:33,980
get this so I don't want to just kind of

787
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:36,619
beat a dead horse he says look when

788
00:34:41,260 --> 00:34:39,050
you're under general anesthesia you

789
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:41,270
don't have a conscious experience as we

790
00:34:44,919 --> 00:34:43,490
understand it that's the whole point but

791
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:44,929
there's no evidence that anyone does

792
00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:49,520
they are out of general anesthesia just

793
00:34:54,399 --> 00:34:52,250
like you wake up after a dream you wake

794
00:35:01,800 --> 00:34:54,409
up to the brain is wrapping up there's

795
00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:05,410
seemed to be healed by failure well

796
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:07,430
again you you were you were

797
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:10,910
non-responsive after it are

798
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:13,010
non-responsive to the research because

799
00:35:18,010 --> 00:35:15,650
this is what dr. long says dr. Locke

800
00:35:18,590 --> 00:35:18,020
okay here's my response here's my

801
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:18,600
response

802
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:23,370
dr. long hears people say I had this

803
00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:25,590
experience while I was under general

804
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:28,920
anesthesia now my point is you can have

805
00:35:33,310 --> 00:35:31,650
a million people say that just like you

806
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:33,320
could have a million people tell you

807
00:35:40,070 --> 00:35:37,410
that they were healed by a faith healer

808
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:40,080
or the answer went away because they

809
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,850
took a penny Sartori clip and I show you

810
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:46,800
there's someone how many people do you

811
00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:52,320
want and try to address the timing issue

812
00:35:57,650 --> 00:35:55,380
Jeff long addresses a timing issue also

813
00:35:59,600 --> 00:35:57,660
advance to Penner Sartorius research

814
00:36:03,320 --> 00:35:59,610
then you started saying does she have a

815
00:36:05,180 --> 00:36:03,330
bias is she somehow not being supervised

816
00:36:08,060 --> 00:36:05,190
even though it's peer-reviewed research

817
00:36:10,540 --> 00:36:08,070
it's just it's just sloppy on your point

818
00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:10,550
this isn't a philosophical question so

819
00:36:15,050 --> 00:36:12,630
philosophical questions related to it

820
00:36:19,850 --> 00:36:15,060
but these are medical researchers now

821
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:19,860
who are really looking at the data I'm

822
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:22,650
still a conclusion that consciousness is

823
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:24,510
not in the brain is out there it's

824
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:28,490
somehow out there and our brain somehow

825
00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:32,130
receive it and PIM van Lommel of course

826
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:35,150
folks the same view and he highly touts

827
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:39,890
mister Sartorius book I would say this

828
00:36:47,150 --> 00:36:45,090
she deserves serious attention her

829
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:47,160
insights about the relationship between

830
00:36:53,630 --> 00:36:50,550
Andy's and end of life those are

831
00:36:56,420 --> 00:36:53,640
important and I can't just dismiss it

832
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,430
out of hand I don't have enough

833
00:37:02,300 --> 00:36:58,800
information to actually decide I mean it

834
00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:02,310
sounds like Western saying I know I I'm

835
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:04,680
not the one who starts by saying that

836
00:37:11,570 --> 00:37:09,180
our that we are wrangling money from the

837
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:11,580
Templeton Foundation and our nerdy

838
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:13,800
little book doesn't engage with the

839
00:37:18,620 --> 00:37:16,050
science and you're the one who starts by

840
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:18,630
accusing me of not responding to the

841
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:20,400
research I have responded to the

842
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:22,650
research no the research that's the

843
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:26,490
point 2 points 1 our devices are not now

844
00:37:31,490 --> 00:37:29,310
capable of saying whether the brain is

845
00:37:32,210 --> 00:37:31,500
actually functioning in the right way

846
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:32,220
but

847
00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:36,240
importantly if someone wakes up from a

848
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:39,300
dream and said I dreamt that I was home

849
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,520
with my father and mother when I was

850
00:37:46,099 --> 00:37:43,920
young and they abused me or whatever or

851
00:37:49,339 --> 00:37:46,109
we had this wonderful trip to Disneyland

852
00:37:52,190 --> 00:37:49,349
it does not follow that they were

853
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:52,200
actually conscious back then from having

854
00:37:58,220 --> 00:37:55,410
conscious experiences of that time their

855
00:38:01,520 --> 00:37:58,230
brain was ramping up as they were

856
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:01,530
getting to ready to wake up so the brain

857
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,690
was functioning when they had these

858
00:38:09,260 --> 00:38:06,000
experiences it seemed as though the

859
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,270
experiences were a long time ago but

860
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:11,280
they were actually under written by

861
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:13,770
brain activity and the same thing may

862
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:16,050
well be true of near-death experiences

863
00:38:22,670 --> 00:38:19,410
and nothing that doctor long or doctor

864
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:22,680
Sartori or doctor and Lama or any of

865
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:27,359
them say goes to that issue I am the Sun

866
00:38:33,230 --> 00:38:29,730
that's exactly what doctors are Tory's

867
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:33,240
research goes to know is that issue is

868
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:36,000
that if people have recollections that

869
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:39,330
are verifiable of their resuscitation

870
00:38:45,020 --> 00:38:43,020
that addresses the timing issue in a way

871
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:45,030
that hasn't been done before and I would

872
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:50,190
mention search has been replicated by

873
00:38:52,849 --> 00:38:51,150
seeing par Nia

874
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:52,859
Indiana's Holden I don't know if you

875
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:54,330
just don't understand this or if you're

876
00:38:57,829 --> 00:38:56,400
just kind of in denial but that the

877
00:39:00,109 --> 00:38:57,839
reason they did that research was

878
00:39:02,510 --> 00:39:00,119
specifically to address this kind of

879
00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:02,520
goofy ramp up kind of thing or this

880
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:04,440
these other things that people throw at

881
00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:06,570
it just because they don't understand

882
00:39:13,099 --> 00:39:10,320
what - well let me say this that these

883
00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:13,109
researchers are coming - I respect those

884
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:15,990
people and I will at some point I'm sure

885
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:18,210
I'll look more carefully at what you're

886
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:24,720
saying I would say that I have just as

887
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:28,250
you are skeptical of science and of the

888
00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:30,420
conclusions that scientists sometimes

889
00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:33,300
come to and just like you point out that

890
00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:36,780
the most important things about Meany

891
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:39,900
and metaphysics and religion and ethics

892
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:43,680
are not decided by science I would want

893
00:39:48,490 --> 00:39:45,890
to look very carefully at their and

894
00:39:51,310 --> 00:39:48,500
results and look at what their

895
00:39:53,350 --> 00:39:51,320
conclusions are and I don't claim to

896
00:39:57,550 --> 00:39:53,360
have the answers I never been and I

897
00:40:00,370 --> 00:39:57,560
never claimed to have the answers I I

898
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:00,380
just think that what one wants to do is

899
00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:03,920
be very very careful about was logic let

900
00:40:10,690 --> 00:40:06,710
me reiterate if you could facilitate a

901
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:10,700
discussion between me and dr. law or

902
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:14,450
doctor Sartorius I would welcome it and

903
00:40:16,750 --> 00:40:16,370
I'm sure I would benefit and learn from

904
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:16,760
it

905
00:40:20,830 --> 00:40:19,310
I would like to participate just as well

906
00:40:24,580 --> 00:40:20,840
just as I have discussed these issues

907
00:40:27,250 --> 00:40:24,590
with dr. Parr Nia and our researchers in

908
00:40:30,940 --> 00:40:27,260
Europe and in Israel I would love to

909
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:30,950
learn from that well you know I bet you

910
00:40:37,420 --> 00:40:34,640
if you want to do that I mean I guess I

911
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:37,430
could maybe help facilitate that but as

912
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:40,850
I as I played in that clip I don't think

913
00:40:46,420 --> 00:40:43,250
anyone takes this philosophical research

914
00:40:48,340 --> 00:40:46,430
approach that you've taken it just it

915
00:40:50,350 --> 00:40:48,350
just doesn't wash so maybe these guys

916
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:50,360
would talk to you maybe they won't but

917
00:40:54,820 --> 00:40:52,790
they're out doing real research in the

918
00:40:56,350 --> 00:40:54,830
field collecting data that is kind of

919
00:40:58,510 --> 00:40:56,360
meaningful from a neuroscience

920
00:41:02,350 --> 00:40:58,520
standpoint I don't think anyone sees

921
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:02,360
this as a philosophy first question

922
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:04,610
there's a philosophy second question

923
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:06,710
about meaning and some of this other

924
00:41:10,090 --> 00:41:08,810
stuff but in terms of sorting through

925
00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:10,100
the medical data

926
00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:12,590
the philosophy can't I don't understand

927
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:15,080
why you think philosophy will help us

928
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:17,810
understand ways what you said is these

929
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:19,670
people are out doing serious work but

930
00:41:24,490 --> 00:41:21,710
dr. long had the time to talk to you

931
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:24,500
multiple times dr. Parr Nia had the time

932
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:25,910
to talk to you so maybe they would have

933
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:28,610
the open-mindedness and willingness to

934
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:30,560
have a friendly conversation with me

935
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:32,510
reach out to him John if they want to do

936
00:41:37,150 --> 00:41:35,110
it all happy to facilitate it I'm just

937
00:41:38,770 --> 00:41:37,160
you know I guess the wrap-up question

938
00:41:39,250 --> 00:41:38,780
would be and you've spent an hour with

939
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:39,260
me

940
00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:41,450
and hey you know what this is kind of

941
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:42,950
what the show is all about in terms of

942
00:41:48,730 --> 00:41:45,370
people who are willing to engage in

943
00:41:50,710 --> 00:41:48,740
discussion and we don't have to agree on

944
00:41:52,660 --> 00:41:50,720
everything for me to respect the fact

945
00:41:55,030 --> 00:41:52,670
that you're willing to come on and

946
00:41:58,930 --> 00:41:55,040
defend your ideas and defend your book

947
00:41:59,920 --> 00:41:58,940
and defend your research I guess the the

948
00:42:01,660 --> 00:41:59,930
wrap-up question

949
00:42:03,010 --> 00:42:01,670
you know what forget about the wrap-up

950
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:03,020
question because I've kind of hammered

951
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:05,119
enough of that don't you tell folks a

952
00:42:10,839 --> 00:42:07,460
little bit more about because we didn't

953
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:10,849
really talk about the broader work that

954
00:42:15,190 --> 00:42:13,609
you do at UC Riverside all the things

955
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:15,200
that you're interested in because it's

956
00:42:21,539 --> 00:42:18,260
not just near-death experience it's a

957
00:42:24,010 --> 00:42:21,549
lot of questions surrounding death

958
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:24,020
immortality and the philosophy of debt

959
00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:26,210
so tell people a little bit more about

960
00:42:30,339 --> 00:42:28,430
the other work that you've done okay and

961
00:42:32,370 --> 00:42:30,349
I also want to thank you for having me

962
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:32,380
on I really appreciate it and

963
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:35,359
disagreement as a philosopher that's our

964
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:37,250
lifeblood were used to it we're used to

965
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:40,089
not being able to resolve questions so I

966
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:43,359
really really appreciate it and I

967
00:42:49,930 --> 00:42:46,400
believe in being strong in my my fears

968
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:49,940
let me say that as we approach any

969
00:42:56,769 --> 00:42:53,839
interesting existential topic we're

970
00:42:59,170 --> 00:42:56,779
going to want different inputs not just

971
00:43:02,680 --> 00:42:59,180
philosophy we're going to want medicine

972
00:43:05,609 --> 00:43:02,690
we're gonna want to read and if possible

973
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:05,619
engage in as many interviews as we can

974
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:08,450
but I don't think we just want

975
00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:10,490
philosophy and I just I don't think we

976
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:13,849
just want interviews by Andy's we want

977
00:43:20,769 --> 00:43:17,510
the total picture and we want a package

978
00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:20,779
that makes sense and all I have pointed

979
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:24,049
out is doctors they think they know a

980
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:26,480
lot of stuff and they think their

981
00:43:32,109 --> 00:43:29,210
authorities on just about everything but

982
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:32,119
even in medicine you have to ask the

983
00:43:36,099 --> 00:43:33,890
tough questions of the doctors often

984
00:43:38,769 --> 00:43:36,109
they don't know the right answers but

985
00:43:41,170 --> 00:43:38,779
when they are venturing into questions

986
00:43:44,470 --> 00:43:41,180
about meaning and metaphysics and the

987
00:43:46,750 --> 00:43:44,480
mind they are not uniquely suited to

988
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:46,760
make the analysis we have to add in

989
00:43:51,819 --> 00:43:49,970
philosophy but I I really want to thank

990
00:43:52,990 --> 00:43:51,829
you again I respect the fact that you're

991
00:43:56,339 --> 00:43:53,000
willing to consider different

992
00:43:58,900 --> 00:43:56,349
perspectives and I have an on an

993
00:44:01,930 --> 00:43:58,910
invitation to discuss these matters with

994
00:44:04,329 --> 00:44:01,940
anyone but let me say I'm interested in

995
00:44:06,730 --> 00:44:04,339
life and death I'm interested in what

996
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:06,740
happens after we die

997
00:44:12,340 --> 00:44:10,160
I'm interested in whether we could be

998
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:12,350
immortal or whether we would want to be

999
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:15,520
a model either in an afterlife or a

1000
00:44:20,620 --> 00:44:18,800
secular kind of living forever I'm

1001
00:44:22,570 --> 00:44:20,630
interested in what near-death

1002
00:44:25,690 --> 00:44:22,580
experiences can teach us about the

1003
00:44:29,580 --> 00:44:25,700
meaning of life and about end-of-life

1004
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,590
care and if you read my new book death

1005
00:44:34,990 --> 00:44:31,520
immortality and meaning in life I

1006
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:35,000
emphasize the beauty and the inspiring

1007
00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:37,610
nature of near-death experiences and how

1008
00:44:42,670 --> 00:44:39,620
they point us to the importance of

1009
00:44:46,660 --> 00:44:42,680
guidance in the last part of our journey

1010
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:46,670
at least our living journey guidance by

1011
00:44:51,580 --> 00:44:49,130
loft trusted mentors from the known to

1012
00:44:55,450 --> 00:44:51,590
the unknown and how important loving

1013
00:44:59,040 --> 00:44:55,460
companionship is I think that this is

1014
00:45:02,400 --> 00:44:59,050
the lessons of near-death experiences so

1015
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:02,410
maybe what I could also say is my main

1016
00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:04,910
area of research throughout my career

1017
00:45:09,670 --> 00:45:07,430
has been on free will and moral

1018
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:09,680
responsibility and ethics so I'm

1019
00:45:16,420 --> 00:45:12,290
interested in a whole package of views

1020
00:45:18,130 --> 00:45:16,430
and when I got the grant from the

1021
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:18,140
Templeton Foundation and by the way I

1022
00:45:22,330 --> 00:45:19,850
didn't wrangle it from them and they

1023
00:45:24,610 --> 00:45:22,340
reached out to me and I believe you'll

1024
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:24,620
find that they're very very happy with

1025
00:45:30,550 --> 00:45:27,650
the results and we have a legacy page

1026
00:45:33,250 --> 00:45:30,560
which your listeners and viewers might

1027
00:45:38,290 --> 00:45:33,260
be interested in they could just Google

1028
00:45:40,060 --> 00:45:38,300
immortality project legacy page or spt

1029
00:45:43,450 --> 00:45:40,070
that's not stands for science philosophy

1030
00:45:46,090 --> 00:45:43,460
and theology and more spt immortality

1031
00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:46,100
project.org you'll see there are over a

1032
00:45:50,610 --> 00:45:49,160
hundred books and articles that came out

1033
00:45:54,180 --> 00:45:50,620
of it

1034
00:45:59,740 --> 00:45:54,190
scientists philosophers theologians

1035
00:46:02,740 --> 00:45:59,750
religious believers atheists what what I

1036
00:46:04,810 --> 00:46:02,750
wanted to say is I never even knew about

1037
00:46:08,140 --> 00:46:04,820
near-death experiences until I got the

1038
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:08,150
grant that was seven years ago

1039
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:11,600
I want to emphasize I have not spent my

1040
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:15,410
life on this one of the big emphasis of

1041
00:46:20,990 --> 00:46:17,510
the Templeton Foundation is humility

1042
00:46:23,570 --> 00:46:21,000
intellectual humility I owe

1043
00:46:26,930 --> 00:46:23,580
when we admit I am NOT a world-class

1044
00:46:30,740 --> 00:46:26,940
expert on these I'm a human being I'm

1045
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:30,750
trained as a philosopher and I bring my

1046
00:46:37,390 --> 00:46:32,670
perspective to what I hope will be a

1047
00:46:41,420 --> 00:46:37,400
holistic investigation of these matters

1048
00:46:44,210 --> 00:46:41,430
okay well great John and again we can be

1049
00:46:47,210 --> 00:46:44,220
the mutual admiration society in terms

1050
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:47,220
of engaging in these discussions these

1051
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:50,370
conversations so thanks again and I will

1052
00:46:58,220 --> 00:46:54,330
love I will bounce the idea off of Jeff

1053
00:47:00,770 --> 00:46:58,230
long I'm not good I can put another I've

1054
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:00,780
done so many of these yeah you've got

1055
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:02,970
the experience but hey it's awesome for

1056
00:47:08,390 --> 00:47:04,850
you to want to reach out in that way so

1057
00:47:12,050 --> 00:47:08,400
thanks again so much and take care thank

1058
00:47:14,090 --> 00:47:12,060
you thank you very much thanks again to

1059
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:14,100
dr. John Fisher for joining me today on

1060
00:47:20,090 --> 00:47:16,380
skeptical the one question I'd had to

1061
00:47:23,740 --> 00:47:20,100
tee up from this interview we try and

1062
00:47:28,010 --> 00:47:23,750
spit this out are in the ease of

1063
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:28,020
philosophy first question when we really

1064
00:47:34,100 --> 00:47:30,810
boil it down that seems to be the the

1065
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:34,110
main thrust of John's argument and if

1066
00:47:38,750 --> 00:47:35,730
you go back and listen to the interview

1067
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:38,760
that I did with Ben his co-author

1068
00:47:43,910 --> 00:47:41,130
which I have to say Allen tree listen to

1069
00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:43,920
it it's it's a really good episode if I

1070
00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:45,750
must say so myself so I'll have a link

1071
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:46,980
to it and I hope you come back and visit

1072
00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:49,110
to it there's a lot of grateful episodes

1073
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:53,070
back in the vault there but in that

1074
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:56,880
previous interview Ben expands on this

1075
00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:01,200
theory of how philosophy can't really

1076
00:48:08,330 --> 00:48:04,980
explain near-death experience and he

1077
00:48:10,010 --> 00:48:08,340
uses an analogy of a fire he says you

1078
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:10,020
know if you have a fire in your house

1079
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:13,410
and somebody looks at just one cause of

1080
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:16,970
the fire then they may be missing the

1081
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:19,110
interrelationship between multiple

1082
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:23,610
causes now this seems to me like an

1083
00:48:31,550 --> 00:48:29,010
incredibly incredibly naive view of what

1084
00:48:33,470 --> 00:48:31,560
near-death experience researchers do on

1085
00:48:35,079 --> 00:48:33,480
a day-to-day basis I mean I think

1086
00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:35,089
doctors are all

1087
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:38,660
looking at multiple causes and how all

1088
00:48:45,729 --> 00:48:43,249
variables need to be controlled but

1089
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:45,739
maybe I'm missing something maybe

1090
00:48:52,839 --> 00:48:48,890
there's some deep deep velocity there

1091
00:48:56,769 --> 00:48:52,849
that I didn't understand so let me know

1092
00:48:58,959 --> 00:48:56,779
your thoughts on this question as always

1093
00:49:01,690 --> 00:48:58,969
the best place to reach me and to talk

1094
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:01,700
about other people who are really into

1095
00:49:06,339 --> 00:49:03,920
this show is through the skeptical forum

1096
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:06,349
which you confirm through the website or

1097
00:49:11,739 --> 00:49:08,390
you can find just by going to skeptic oh

1098
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:11,749
- forum calm and be sure to check out

1099
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:14,690
skeptical website where you'll find this

1100
00:49:21,819 --> 00:49:17,690
show and many many other previous shows

1101
00:49:25,150 --> 00:49:21,829
all available for free download mp3 take

1102
00:49:27,219 --> 00:49:25,160
and go to it you will and while you're

1103
00:49:28,989 --> 00:49:27,229
there you can check out other things you

1104
00:49:30,489 --> 00:49:28,999
can subscribe to the newsletter which is

1105
00:49:33,130 --> 00:49:30,499
really just kind of a reminder that a

1106
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:33,140
new show is up and you can also find

1107
00:49:37,839 --> 00:49:34,910
contact information and other stuff like

1108
00:49:42,430 --> 00:49:37,849
that if you need it well that's going to

1109
00:49:45,249 --> 00:49:42,440
do it for today's show sometimes people

1110
00:49:47,979 --> 00:49:45,259
get frustrated that I keep hammering on

1111
00:49:49,410 --> 00:49:47,989
skeptics but I feel like I've laid down

1112
00:49:52,479 --> 00:49:49,420
the gauntlet with

1113
00:49:55,870 --> 00:49:52,489
Anytime Anywhere debate so when people

1114
00:49:59,859 --> 00:49:55,880
raise their arm and say hey I got know

1115
00:50:00,609 --> 00:49:59,869
what a debate I'm 90% of the time I'm up

1116
00:50:07,029 --> 00:50:00,619
for it

1117
00:50:10,839 --> 00:50:07,039
a brave man for coming on and defending

1118
00:50:13,749 --> 00:50:10,849
his book so that's going to do it for

1119
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:13,759
this episode until next time take care